Saturday, February 26, 2005

Teens & Twenties Reaction to "Fascism Tendencies"

Hi All,

I thought you may be interested in dialogue back and forth on an online discussion forum that my little brother, from the Big Brother/Big Sister program, when he posted the Topic of the Week from this week's The Christian Wrong Blog. The online discussion forum - http://www.blogger.com/www.offtopic.com is a rant and rave among the teens and twenties age group. Within 24 hours, there were 61 comments back and forth - read below. It is most interesting and you get a glimpse of how and what the younger mindset thinks and believes.

p.s. Unfortunately, I did not have dinner with the Dayton family (that would have been fun) although the fundraiser he is talking about was for Kerry and Al Franken was the speaker, and it was a fun time nonetheless.

PWB


If the mods here don't mind, I have a friend who has created a political blog since Election 2004, and I'd like to post some his writings once a week. Would that be okay without considering it spam?

A little background into PWB: I've know him since I was 8 years old and I can tell you that he isn't some armchair liberal or know-it-all college kid. He is 42, is happily married, is well-versed and owns his own advertising business. Last year, he had dinner with the Dayton family (our slightly-looney governor) and 50 of their friends for a Democratic fundraiser. Again, he knows his politics and isn't some blogger who likes to ramble.


The Christian Right and The Bushies - Fascism Tendencies?

Oh boy first post. This space for rent... I'll give tek a discount when he comes back.
Scrumtralecent's Avatar

I agree with all of that.


yeah man, because bush is such a dictator what with the congress and all
by sans_pants

Did you even read it?


nah not yet, i just read the definitions of facism and thats all i really need, i suppose i can go back and read it though if that will make everyone happy.
ok now i read it. its still stupid. a few things off the top of my head are that gay people arent a race and that the patriot act was passed by a majority of congress both dem and republican


whats this guys age and level of education, ill assume he goes to college currently

next i could try to explain why bush isnt actually tied to the christian right and how most far right wingers dont like bush due to some of his policies and then i could explain how lobbyists are important, but im sure we have no room for facts or anything in here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Automaton
1. . . . In an interview with the Washington Post on January 20, 2005, our Vice-President stated that the Executive branch of our government should have more concentration of power and implied our Constitution should be amended as so.



Got an actual quote to go with the unsupported claim?


Quote:
"Cheney was especially critical of anything that would undermine the president's powers as commander in chief. He said he agrees with many who believe the War Powers Act, which was passed in 1973 and attempts to restrict the president's use of military force, is "unconstitutional," though that has not been fully tested in the courts."


He should be critical of anything that undermines the President's authority as Commander-in-chief. The Constitution grants the president those powers, which means they cannot be taken away. But of course liberals can't stand to see power in anyone's hands other than their own, so I'm not surprised that they're worried that the President might retain all the powers granted to him by the Constitution.


Quote:
Our President proclaimed after winning 51 percent of the popular vote that the people have given him a mandate.


Clinton and his people always claimed a mandate, as did all you liberals and democrats. The funny thing is that Clinton never won more than (I believe) 48% of the popular vote (not that the popular vote means anything at all anyway).

So Bush's claim of a mandate - as the first president in 16 years to gain more than 50% of votes cast - is pretty solid.


Quote:
The Executive branch, Legislative branch and Judicial branch now have a conservative majority in this country - at risk is our system of checks and balances.


How exactly is it that seeing the preference of the people reflected in the makeup of the government (which is supposedly "by the people, of the people, and for the people") a threat to the system of checks and balances? Congress still has power over the President. The Courts still have power over the Congress. And the President and the Congress still have power over the courts. Seems to me the system is working as designed.

Your friend is full of shit. If this first point is any indication, he doesn't have anything to say other than foaming-at-the-mouth liberal propaganda. He sure as hell doesn't seem to be on speaking terms with any actual facts or reasoning to back up his ridiculous claims, and is engaged in nothing more than whining, thinly disguised as political analysis.

Originally Posted by sans_pants
nah not yet, i just read the definitions of facism and thats all i really need, i suppose i can go back and read it though if that will make everyone happy.



F911 was all lies? Did you see it? No.
The Simpsons gay episode is an outrage! Did you watch it? No.
________________________________

Bush = Hitler

Bush = Hitler

Bush = Hitler

Bush = Hitler


Location: Louisville, KY

As you can clearly see, pissing of the Christians is a great idea. You piss us off, our guy gets in office by the most popular votes in history.
Arcenius's Avatar

Location: While Socialists learn to eliminate certain societies, Capitalists learn to legislate certain societies
Originally Posted by Carnifex

Agreed, partially!


Quote:

1.. Mr. Bush consistently sends signals to his right wing religious base. In last year's State of the Union he exhorted: "there's power, wonder working power, in the goodness and idealism and faith of the American people". It's a phrase from a well known Communion hymn "there's power, wonder working power in the blood of the lamb". Bush brings together the holiness zeal of Christian evangelicalism with patriotic fundamentalism. The core belief system of this 'civic gospel' goes something like this: The United States was founded as a Christian nation with free enterprise as the only economic system truly compatible with Christian beliefs.


Why a conservative would advocate religion on such an extreme level and use terminology that a moderate conservative would never use, is a mystery to me.

Of course, why 60 million voted for such an individual will be the world's majestic anonymity of all.

I always thought that a conservative, at least one with traditional American conservative views, would favor smaller government, not bigger.

Originally Posted by rzklkng
F911 was all lies? Did you see it? No.



Yes I did. And it was all lies, half-truths, and misdirections.
Joe_Cool


You believe a movie that was editted like it was a freaking 3rd grade collage?
Madwolf

Did anyone actually read the webster definition in the article? Most of it can be applied to many Socialist Dictatorships around the globe.

I might add that every government must ballance law enforcement and national security with civil liberties. These are important issues of which this author seems to be short on details and long on name calling and finger pointing.

It's all proper FBI law enforcement under Reno Justice, but now Fascism under Bush?
RMNIXON

Location: While Socialists learn to eliminate certain societies, Capitalists learn to legislate certain societies
RMNIXON


Whether it be a Socialist Dictatorship(which is what I prefer anyday over a Fascist Dictatorship) or Fascist rule, they are essentially the same. They involve big government which controls its people and makes decisions for them. Extreme left and right have more in common than people would like to believe.

The only difference I can think of is that Fascists incorporate religion into their state, while Socialists keep religion out.
Wolvrin704's

Arcenius writes:

Are you sure about Fascists incorporating religion? The Fascist gov'ts that I can think of; Nazi Germany, Italy(under Mussolini) and Franco-led Spain did not advocate religion. Unless you make the claim that the gov't was the religion and the dictator was their god.

I chuckle when people claim Bush, the far right and the Christian Right are Fascists or want to take over gov't. You guys fail to see this for what it is. Most Christians don't really see this as a political fight of right vs left. They see politics as just another arena in the fight over moral corruption and the spiritual direction of our country. That is what it really is about. They are sickened by the moral decadence of our country which is quite evident by watching the nightly news, entertainment news and all the "reality" shows featuring rich and or famous people. No longer do Christians wish to roll over and give up their political rights as they did for so long.

WickedLou9's Avatar

Dude. WTF are you talking about? What rights have we Christians given up over the past 100 years?

I'm not talking about rights. I'm talking about the moral decadence of scoiety and its creeping into law and gov't. I'm not going to mention any specifics as it would just lead to a thread hijack.
Nevertheless while I do not have a problem with "let people do what they want because its a free country". But, I do have a problem when those values are taught to my children.
Wolvrin704

Originally Posted by Seawolf
Every administration since the WPA was passed thinks it's a bunch of crap.... it's called "legislative branch vs. the executive branch." >

Presidents that have the power to take the country to war on thier own whims instantly turn into dictators. Like Bush, only he lied and tricked everyone.
TheRemains

Robert Kennedy Jr. has been quoted within the last year stating our current regime's policies are starting to look familiar to Fascism.

I wanted to stop reading this bullshit right here because I basically tune out anyone who calls a president elected by a democratic process a "regime". That just makes you biased. A few years back, while I may have not liked Clinton at all, I never slapped him with a wacko label like that. Also, I like how its all the sudden its a problem when Republicans/Conservatives control all three branches of government, but I'm sure he didn't care at all when Liberal had the Presidency, both houses and a court that ended up legalizing abortion
UMiami3

Presidents that have the power to take the country to war on thier own whims instantly turn into dictators. Like Bush, only he lied and tricked everyone.

I am sick of this "He tricked everybody". Do people really think he is the only person who gets to look at intelligence? Then wtf does the "Senate Intelligence Commitee do?

1. A form of government: a fascist regime.
2. A government in power; administration: suffered under the new regime.

1. A prevailing social system or pattern.
2. The period during which a particular administration or system prevails.
3. A regulated system, as of diet and exercise; a regimen.

Regime doesn't always have a negative meaning.
UMiami3

I am sick of this "He tricked everybody". Do people really think he is the only person who gets to look at intelligence? Then wtf does the "Senate Intelligence Commitee do?

HE might not have been the only one that looked at it but HE is the commander in chief and the buck stops at his desk. He is ultimately responsible for the decisions made by himself and his staff.

If i fuck up at work, my boss gets heat for it. Same situation.
Dos Equis4

Regime doesn't always have a negative meaning.

Not technically, no. But you're either dishonest, ignorant, or hopelessly naïve if you say that it doesn't always carry a negative implication.

Ah, I see. You're not aware that there's a difference between common usage and dictionary definition. Joe_Cool
shermttam's Avatar

Where do I start with this post? It's so flawed I'm tempted just to say BS to all of it and move on...

Screw it, you know what...That's what I'm going to do. This post is BS, forget about taking it line by line and pointing out the dozen or so flaws. If you want to be so warped and intellectually bankrupt as to say that the Bush administration is verging on fascism and believe you're being insightful and original I think you need to begin an anti-psychotic drug regimen.

How in the hell can you read one of those definitions for fascism, not to mention look at the history of facist governments, and believe it applies to the Bush administration? In case you don't understand how American politics works Bush has at most 8 years to be in office. He, as is the congress, is voted into office by the American people.

Bush is a dictator, Bush is Hitler, Bush hates gays, minorities, and non-republicans...Grow up and use your brain instead of regurgitating liberal, talking-head, absurdities.

When Bush sends the military to wipe out the congress and judiciary, revokes private property rights, murders or imprisons any of the dissenting population I'll agree with the whole Bush is a fascist idea. Until I believe that any of that scenario is likely though, I'll just smile and laugh at you.
Wolvrin704

Are you sure about Fascists incorporating religion? The Fascist gov'ts that I can think of; Nazi Germany, Italy(under Mussolini) and Franco-led Spain did not advocate religion. Unless you make the claim that the gov't was the religion and the dictator was their god.

Of course they incorporate religion. Let me ask you something, have you ever really looked closely at a swastika before?

Hint: (It's a twisted cross)

You should read "Mein Kampf" and the terminology Hitler used to describe himself. The amount of words you will find connected with spirituality and religion is fascinating.


Quote:
Who says I am not under the special protection of God?


This is one of the several quotes Hitler uses in his book to hint us that he indeed believed in GOD and that he was sent by god to be "THE ONE WHO LEADS." In short, DER FUHRER. Isn't Bush today the one who leads the great empire called the United States?

Quote:
I chuckle when people claim Bush, the far right and the Christian Right are Fascists or want to take over gov't. You guys fail to see this for what it is. Most Christians don't really see this as a political fight of right vs left. They see politics as just another arena in the fight over moral corruption and the spiritual direction of our country. That is what it really is about. They are sickened by the moral decadence of our country which is quite evident by watching the nightly news, entertainment news and all the "reality" shows featuring rich and or famous people. No longer do Christians wish to roll over and give up their political rights as they did for so long.


Well let me tell you, religion is the only aspect of life which essentially never changes. It is always the same. It never improves, it never adapts and it always discriminates. I think people are fed up with living in the 21st century while their religious counterparts or friends want to steer the nation into a thinking process worse than the Middle Ages.

Originally Posted by Arcenius
You should read "Mein Kampf" and the terminology Hitler used to describe himself. The amount of words you will find connected with spirituality and religion is fascinating.


Maybe you don't know that along with the Jews, outspoken Christians who were against Hitler were some of the first people to be herded off to the concentration camps. What god was Hitler serving?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenius
Isn't Bush today the one who leads the great empire called the United States?


So what's your point?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenius
Well let me tell you, religion is the only aspect of life which essentially never changes. It is always the same. It never improves, it never adapts and it always discriminates. I think people are fed up with living in the 21st century while their religious counterparts or friends want to steer the nation into a thinking process worse than the Middle Ages.



What religion are you talking about?
shermttam , Location: DFW, Texas

You're both wrong. It is a religious symbol, yes, but the swastika predates the Christian cross by several centuries. Swastikas were present in Mesopotamian art and the ruins of the Indus River Valley civilization. It is actually a rather widespread ancient religious symbol, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the cross.


I agree with you. My point was basically the same, only in fewer words. He placed emphasis on cross (I believe implying a connection with Christianity). I placed the emphasis on twisted, denying what I perceived his belief to be.


Ah, I misunderstood what you were saying then. Carry on.

Originally Posted by shermttam
It's a twisted cross.

Twisted does not mean insane, in this case. Don't even try that tactic. Twisted or not, IT IS RELIGIOUS and it is a cross nonetheless.

That Bush indeed does lead the US in a Fascist like tendency.

Quote:
What religion are you talking about?


Mainly Christianity and Islam.


Arcenius
Originally Posted by Arcenius
Twisted does not mean insane, in this case. Don't even try that tactic. Twisted or not, IT IS RELIGIOUS and it is a cross nonetheless.


As quoted at the end of this post you state you have a problem with Christianity and Islam. So, was I wrong in my understanding that your emphasis on the word "cross" was a slap at Christianity? I was merely pointing out that a "twisted" cross is not a Christian cross.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenius
This is one of the several quotes Hitler uses in his book to hint us that he indeed believed in GOD and that he was sent by god to be "THE ONE WHO LEADS." In short, DER FUHRER. Isn't Bush today the one who leads the great empire called the United States?

That Bush indeed does lead the US in a Fascist like tendency.


So let me see if I understand what you are saying then...Hitler believed he was appointed, or "protected" in the quote you posted earlier, by God (or at least a god) and Bush believes he was appointed by God, so your logical conclusion is that they both must be fascists? Belief in a god = Fascism?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenius
Mainly Christianity and Islam.


So you're arguing that religion has offered in the past and is currently offering absolutely nothing to the world?
Arcenius's Avatar

Location: While Socialists learn to eliminate certain societies, Capitalists learn to legislate certain societies

Fascism=belief in god
Communism= belief in materialism (Diabolical Materialism)

What is there not to understand?

I'm not sure what Bush feels like since he's too stupid to come up with quotes himself, but his previous state of the Union Speech, not the in 2005, contains religious rhetoric and propaganda. See my first post.

Quote:
So you're arguing that religion has offered in the past and is currently offering absolutely nothing to the world? >

Since when did I say that religion has offered nothing? Where in the fucking world did you get that from, seriously?

In fact, my posts support the opposite. Religion has offered many great things...sadly, they can be summed up into HATE and DISCIMINATION.
Dos Equis4's Avatar

Arc, you might as well be talking to a bundle of sticks.

They can't grasp fascist tendancies is not equal to hitler. Hilter was the most extreme fascist. They think that by saying bush has fascist tendancies, means that you are implying bush = hitler. Bush has fascist tendancies, we all know bush is not equal to hitler.

Its like saying "Bob has quarterback qualities. Bob must be Peyton Manning."
Location: Houston, TX


Originally Posted by Joe_Cool
Not technically, no. But you're either dishonest, ignorant, or hopelessly naïve if you say that it doesn't always carry a negative implication.

Incorrect, at least in the realm of political science.


Quote:
What is a political regime? A regime is a political order in which one party essentially controls national politics, usually for several generations. The New Deal Coalition can be thought of as a regime, reigning from 1933 until roughly 1980. According to Skowronek, a new regime is usually resilient, while it may grow vulnerable over time. Presidents may either be affiliated with the current regime or opposed to it. Right now, according to Skowronek’s theory, we are still in the Reagan regime. George W. Bush is affiliated (not opposed) to this regime. Circumstances of Leadership: When he comes to power, every president is either affiliated with the current regime or opposed to the current regime. For example, Lyndon Johnson was affiliated with the New Deal regime of Franklin Roosevelt. Theodore Roosevelt was affiliated with Lincoln’s regime. On the other hand, Andrew Jackson came into office opposed to the fractured Jefferson regime, and Ronald Reagan was elected in opposition to FDR’s New Deal regime. George W. Bush, our current president, has been elected as an affiliated president. He is affiliated with the Reagan regime.

There is a status of the regime when a president comes into office. The regime is either vulnerable or resilient. If a regime is vulnerable, it means its basic ideologies are susceptible to direct repudiation. If a regime is resilient, then the basic ideologies are still strong.


The link isn't from my school, but I've used the quoted book in my Presidency classes.
surrender

Originally Posted by Arcenius
In fact, my posts support the opposite. Religion has offered many great things...sadly, they can be summed up into HATE and DISCIMINATION.

hate, discrimination AND the leading causes of war.
Dos Equis4

They can't grasp fascist tendancies is not equal to hitler. Hilter was the most extreme fascist. They think that by saying bush has fascist tendancies, means that you are implying bush = hitler. Bush has fascist tendancies, we all know bush is not equal to hitler.

Its like saying "Bob has quarterback qualities. Bob must be Peyton Manning."


Which is why, in one of my first posts in this thread, I said the following....


Agreed, partially!


It was a reply to Carnifex basically stating this: Bush=Hitler

I've even mentioned the word tendencies quite a few times myself, but no one seems to get it except you.

There has been one person who has said "Bush = Hitler." In my first post in this thread I referred to it sarcastically. I've not been having a Bush = Hitler discussion. The line of discussion I've had with Arc is the idea that Hitler believed in God, Hitler was a fascist, Bush believes in God, so Bush must be a fascist. In his last post to me he said, "fascism = belief in god." I don't follow this logic. I'm not having some Bush = Hitler discussion, Hitler only came into the discussion seriously after Arc brought in both the Nazi's and Hitler. Up to that point I was only arguing the tendencies, ideas, and actualities of a fascist government and trying to see how it could be possible to see Bush in this light.
Shermttam

Originally Posted by littlebill


To me, the original poster has chosen the correct username of Automaton. That's how he thinks--like a motherfucking robot. Boy, how you lefties like to bash anyone who believes in a higher power. For shame, you blue state larvae.


BTW, when I call you larvae, I mean that affectionately. Really. I do.
Dos Equis4


Yeah, but I wrote my own fucking articles. See the difference, you bastard? I'm not a plagarist. If I wrote the fucking things, then why do I have to agree to give commentary on them? In other words, I agree with all of it. Understand? Or am I talking above your head?
Littlebill


Dos Equis4's Avatar

I dont bash those who believe in a higher being. I bash those who believe in a higher being and try to incorporate those religious beliefs into legislation for our country, thus imposing their beliefs on to me and others. I realize there are a lot of people who share a common belief, but it does not belong in government. Save it for the church and your private lives.

I can handle "god bless america" in speeches, but when people use that shit for justification for certain laws, i think that is wrong.

Automaton's Avatar
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Originally Posted by thomez
You can post articles if and only if you reply to those who participate in the threads and if you give personal comments about the article, like you would an editorial piece from a newspaper. Say what you agree with, disagree with, whatever, but participate in the discussions. This is what littlebill has not done, so he is deemed a spammer IMO.

Okay, I'll try my best next time. He just basically a very close friend of mine who wants to be heard. He's too busy with his own business to come in here on a daily basis to respond, that's why he writes these once a week. I'll see what I can do to add comments from myself or get him in here. Thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcenius
I have a problem not just with Islam or Christianity, but with every religious view or institution. Well, a twisted cross sure as hell doesn't look like the star and the cresent of Islam. The closest symbol to a twisted cross is the cross of Christians. Why you are trying to deny this is beyond me.


You do realize that the Swastika originally was a Hindu symbol, right?
Wolvrin704

Wolvrin apparently knows nothing about the swastika
sans_pants


Yes, except the Hindu symbol is backwards than the swastika.

What's your point?
Arcenius

While Socialists learn to eliminate certain societies, Capitalists learn to legislate certain societies
sans_pants

Obviously, I am the only one(with a couple of other members) who know anything about religion and swastikas.

Try again sans pants!

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